What is the value of agricultural land in Punjab these days?

[proactive]

  On 2/19/2023 at 9:31 AM, weareallone said:

That’s quite tragic isn’t it? I’ve been to several states and it seems that the greed for land is perhaps the greatest in Indian Punjab. I have several Pakistani Punjabi friends and there isn’t apparently this extent of greed there. Indeed people still happily live traditionally in mud houses without electricity. There's still also forests and waterfalls in Lehnda Punjab but Chardha Punjab (and Haryana) has the lowest forest cover in India at 0.5% (i.e. non existent); every square inch has been exploited for commercial farming.

I don't want to cause any offence but from my understanding, the land greed and family feuds are associated with Jat culture. I know a few people who have murdered their own brothers over land disputes. There's also a significant disenfranchisement of Dalits- who own no land in spite of making up a third of the population. From a historical perspective, 70% of Punjab (including Haryana) was forest before British rule. The trees were clear-cut, lions and tigers exterminated, and all that land was handed over to loyal Jats. At the same time, in a move similar to Enclosure in England, Commons were dissolved and handed over to the Jats- rendering Dalits landless and in permanent servitude as a slave/manual labour class- which continues till today.

That said, as an ethnic Punjabi, why should I live elsewhere? I'm living in India now and it's embarassing having to float between other states.

So safe or not, government-mafia nexus, nepotism and social Jat greed notwithstanding, I need 10 acres land in Punjab for reforestation and self-sufficiency and am hoping that there's someone who can help indicate land prices and geographical features in different districts So that I can shortlist my options. I don't have 10 years to research by wandering around Punjab (and probably getting almost lynched again). Please help!

 

Expand  

My mother used to tell us that when she was a youngster in the 1930s, not much care was taken of land and there were even people who used to complain if they had lots of land because they had to find tenants to farm it and get a good income from it. The loss of millions of acres during partition and the decrease in acreage per family led to land prices going up and tenants being easy to find and get good income. My family hasn't farmed for three generations as we have been giving land on maamla since the 1950s. We have land in the local town which is very valuable and which we are aiming to sell and buy 15-20 acres in or around our village and I would love grow Avacados or other 'superfoods' to sell and invest the profits into job creation schemes in the village. 

As for the commons or SHAAMLAAT land, this was not land handed over to Jats by the British.  This land which usually centres around a well or KHOOH, was land that belonged to the founders of the village who in our Punjab would invariably have been Jats who allowed it for the use of the whole village. Technically this land belongs to the descendants of the original founders of the village and this is how it is shown on the revenue records. This can be dozens of families or more. The land is shown by Patti which is the line of descent from one of the founders of the village. Thus all families descended from that founder and shown as owners of this Shaamlaat land. The government attempted to give this Shaamlaat land to the Dalits of the village or transfer it to Panchayat ownership which many villages protested against. You can see their point, if the government wants to give Dalits land then why doesn't it buy the land from the legal owners. This scheme was devised by the Congress to gain Dalits votes and create factions in the villages. In our village the Shaamlaat was divided by all the descendent families before it could be taken over by the Panchayat or given to Dalits. We got our share which is about 3m x 10m which we use as a store. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

  On 2/17/2023 at 9:59 PM, weareallone said:

How much per acre and where is the CHEAPEST agricultural/forest land in Punjab today (to buy for tree planting/nature protection project)?

General areas and ballpark prices will be helpful so that I can narrow the search.

Ps. If someone knows any non-selfish property dealer, please PM me their details 

 

 

Expand  

Normal Jameen prices are 20-25 lakhs per Killah.

Buy near a pind and not near the main road

[weareallone]

  On 2/24/2023 at 12:00 PM, proactive said:

My mother used to tell us that when she was a youngster in the 1930s, not much care was taken of land and there were even people who used to complain if they had lots of land because they had to find tenants to farm it and get a good income from it. The loss of millions of acres during partition and the decrease in acreage per family led to land prices going up and tenants being easy to find and get good income. My family hasn't farmed for three generations as we have been giving land on maamla since the 1950s. We have land in the local town which is very valuable and which we are aiming to sell and buy 15-20 acres in or around our village and I would love grow Avacados or other 'superfoods' to sell and invest the profits into job creation schemes in the village. 

As for the commons or SHAAMLAAT land, this was not land handed over to Jats by the British.  This land which usually centres around a well or KHOOH, was land that belonged to the founders of the village who in our Punjab would invariably have been Jats who allowed it for the use of the whole village. Technically this land belongs to the descendants of the original founders of the village and this is how it is shown on the revenue records. This can be dozens of families or more. The land is shown by Patti which is the line of descent from one of the founders of the village. Thus all families descended from that founder and shown as owners of this Shaamlaat land. The government attempted to give this Shaamlaat land to the Dalits of the village or transfer it to Panchayat ownership which many villages protested against. You can see their point, if the government wants to give Dalits land then why doesn't it buy the land from the legal owners. This scheme was devised by the Congress to gain Dalits votes and create factions in the villages. In our village the Shaamlaat was divided by all the descendent families before it could be taken over by the Panchayat or given to Dalits. We got our share which is about 3m x 10m which we use as a store. 

Expand  

Will you please consider donating 75% of your land for reforestation and growing organic food for langar? Please PM me urgently

I would also like to address your misconceptions of land ownership. Please read through the end in the spirit of truth and reconciliation. You may learn something new and change your worldview!

1. To say that Jats founded these villages or were landlords or ever owned the commons, is not true. First, the Jats were themselves originally only peasant (leaseholder) farmers.

To understand the Commons, Dalit land alienation and how and Jats came to own all the land in Punjab, we need to step back in time and understand feudalism and certain key events in ancient Arya, Guru, Misal, British and Indian history.

2. Let's start with ancient history. The commons were very old tracts of forest land from ancient Aboriginal times, that pre-date Aryan (Jat) settlements in what is called Punjab today. As part of the Aryan conquest and  subsequent Aryan Colonisation of North-West India, most arable land was acquired by Jats by the dispossession of the indigenous Dalit tribes (in much the same way as indigenous people have been dispossessed the world over). In the caste system and the feudal ownership system, they were considered to be peasant farmers, and given Kabza of new land that was made available by expanding existing Indigenous settlements (clearing the forests).

Most land on paper (whether farmed by individually by Jat men or collectively by Dalit women), was owned by the local Brahmin, Rajput, and sometimes by Khatri Traders and money lenders. These sub-landlords held a simple title to collect tax. Absolute title was held by the local ruler in right of the prevailing Imperial crown at the time (be it Muslim, or Hindu). However In the feudal system, kabza played a huge role (possession is defacto ownership in law even today). Landlords came and went and estates exchanged hands frequently between Rajas and Navabs due to war etc. Sub-landlords also changed hands. But the customary occupier rarely changed. Indeed Peasant farmers and Dalit Bastis were indeed literally considered to be part of the estate itself (when the estate changed hands; the people who lived there- and their land rights, were included in the sale!). In other words, the tenant farmer had a customary or hereditary right to the land, and the title owner was just a tax-collector with no right to either evict the customary hereditary farmer or hand it over to another, unless by consent or severe violation of law, such as treason etc.

3. As forests were considered to be valuable Imperial hunting land, it wasn't often opened up to new Kabza. What the Jats had got long ago during the early days of Aryan Colonisation, was what they still had- and the Dalits were at an advantage, as they had customary Forest rights to forage and Hunt, which the Jats did not. However, in the centuries prior to Guru Nanak, and especially during the Mughal era, more and more forests were clearcut for export and shipbuilding and the new kabza (permanent lease) for the deforested land was mostly given to Jats (whether Hindu or Muslim converts)- often at the expense of the Dalit tribe's ancient customary rights). But the actual land title was invariably in the hands of Brahmins or money lenders (as zamindars; sub-landlords), and in imperial records, absolute title was owned on paper by the regional ruling Rajas or Navabs (landlords). Dalits thus became disenfranchised of all but the Commons, which they fought for as their ancient Aboriginal right.

4. The Gurus totally disrupted the discriminatory Arya Caste system and their exploitation of Mother Earth. The Gurus redistributed land BACK to Dalit stewardship. Their Dharamshalas indeed were modeled on collective Aboriginal Forest gardening and foraging, as practised by Dalit women- with produce being used for the whole community and Langar; commercial farming was strictly banned under the Gurus, and the Jats, many of whom had lost their Kabza due to Expanding Dharamshalas and  land back in Dalit hands, absolutely hated these pesky Gurus for this. (Note that upto 90% of ordinary Sevaks at Dharamshalas came from low caste backgrounds, whilst Jat-Rajputs were very few and Brahmins quite rare). Now, the Gurus achieved this great land redistribution, by obtaining absolute land grants from sympathetic local rulers. So they exercised their acquired legal authority to change the Kabza on land in their own possession, but a lot of Punjab's forests were still held by Brahmins and money lenders, on behalf of some Raja or Navab (who were not as sympathetic to the Gurus). So under the Gurus, Dalits gained the most and Jats lost the most, whilst the forests and food were no longer seen as commodities. Langar, grown at Dharamsalas by indigenous women, was feeding the hungry masses. This was revolutionary.

5. The Rajput and self-proclaimed savior of the Jat Arya Race, Banda Bahadur (believed by old, reliable Akali Singhs to have been a complete fraud), and his many Jat successors, upset the whole system of hereditary feudalism, Aboriginal rights to Commons, the Guru's Dharamsalas and the forest as a living Goddess.

For thousands of years after Aryan and Muslim regimes, land had been tax-managed by brahmins and money lenders on behalf of local rulers. Now some Jats in Khalsa garb were engaged in conquest for Land and power. First, they occupied the Dharamshalas and exterminated or expelled the Dalit Sevaks. Then they warred with the various Muslim kings. Jagirs, or land grants were made to the likes of Navab Kapur Singh. Their many land conquests were documented in legal records known as "Misal" (literally meaning the accounting of conquest), and henceforth all the acquired land and money was divided between several local (mostly Jat) warlords, taking on the name Misl. Thus, these imperial Jat warlords now owned “imperial title” to most of Punjab and beyond. But unlike previous periods in history, where ruler's land would change hands but kabza holders stayed put, the Jats upset the whole system: Zamindari was abolished and replaced with "Sardariat", a new form of feudalism, wherein the new Jat warlords weren't satisfied with just being tax-collecting overlords- they wanted the land for themselves. Upsetting thousands of years of feudalism as well as respect for ancient customary aboriginal rights, they vanquished the role of tax agents and lords and evicted non Jats; especially Dalits. Jats gave themselves ownership and permanent and exclusive tenancy over the whole of Punjab. Loyal Muslim Jats and some Khatri were allowed to keep their old Kabza, whilst Dalits were evicted and rendered virtually landless. Some aboriginal Commons still existed, as they were deep in the jungles and hence seen to be worthless as revenue land- but now the Dalits had “legally” become illegal squatters on their own ancient land (like what happened to aboriginal Australia). Now- before you start complaining; "Sardariat" has nothing to do with the Gurus. It still exists in Pakistan and the Muslim feudal landlords are still called “sardars”, and Dalits Sikhs in Punjab still call their Jat Sikh landlords "Sardars").

6. British rule: The British introduced simple title in all of Punjab apart from certain areas of the North West frontier/KPK (where Sardariat still exists today). The British introduced land revenue records managed by Tehsildars (the system still exists in rural areas). The British Crown acquired all forest land, and so either the British Crown or Jat Panchayat were declared to be owners of the Dalit's Commons, depending on where they were located. PEPSU and Dogra Kashmir and other Princely states had their own system, although valuable forest land (and thus many Dalit Commons) was reserved to the Crown.

So Commons are an incredible ancient aboriginal heritage of Punjab, and were never owned or farmed by the Jats until they stole the land by conquest.

7. Now, as happens in commercial agriculture, Jat landholdings gradually reduced as a result of large families and loan defaults; Brahmins and Khatri money lenders had been gradually acquiring a lot of land. At the same time, the forest was being cleared rapidly for wood export to Britain. Dalits, reliant upon sedentary and non-sedentary gardening, foraging and hunting in the middle of the jungles, were finding themselves landless due to mass clearing of forests by the British- and Jats were not letting them access the new “village Panchayat Land” (which still happens today). So, Dalits were organising a big revolt. And the Jats were furious with Brahmins and Khatris whom they accused of "stealing Jat land",  and didn't want Dalits to be given any rights.

The British government, fearing revolt, were pressured into passing the Criminal tribes Act, which effectively created concentration camps and kill on sight orders for Dalit tribes, as well as the Punjab Land alienation act 1909, whereby legally only Jats (of any religion) were allowed to legally own land (as the designated “agrarian caste”). Transfer of agricultural to non-Jats was thus banned (This law is still on the books as is, in Pakistan Punjab, and in a modified form in Indian Punjab). Importantly, The Punjab Alienation of Land Act also meant that only Jats could buy up Punjab's newly deforestated land at auction at throwaway prices or even for free (Like with imperial White Colonisers in Canada, the British asked the Jats to cut the forest and hand over the timber, and in return they would get legal title). So within a few decades of British rule, all of Punjab's rich jungle was destroyed by Jats, for the British government, and many hundreds of thousands of acres of land came into Jat ownership as new agriculture land (former forest land). This can be studied by looking at Colonial revenue, forest and survey records- if you don’t believe me. Punjab’s vast forest lands didn’t just disappear into thin air! The Jats took it.

These British Acts also guaranteed that Dalits could not even legally buy back their own land- and so they were rendered totally landless and became bonded indentured Labour for Jats. This helped to cement Jat dominance and Dalit slavery in the modern British legal system, inherited and carried on by India. This is akin to the legal dispossession of Indigenous people's from their land in eastern US states, combined with slavery (US natives were expelled West; Dalits were simply enslaved by the Jats).

8. Post-independence, a half-hearted attempt was made to redistribute land to landless Dalits throughout India- and was met with a fierce backlash by the Brahmin-led RSS. In Punjab, the Arya supremacist mentality was represented by the Jats (Brahmins and Rajputs Elsewhere). In other words, the Indian government  and Jat Sikhs worked hand in glove to continue Dalit oppression (even as they sparred openly like the competing Arya factions that the really are- the true context of the Bhindawale movement).

Very Importantly, when "degraded forest" Government land was opened up for auction in Punjab, on the claim that Dalits could benefit. ’Many Dalits' ancient Commons were on these former tracts of forests. Dalits had been farming (and caring for trees and Banyan Groves there for many thousands of years before Jat Arya even existed in India). But the auction was designed to benefit Jats; being open to the general public, Dalits could not compete with the Jats in auction. They had Zero funds, as landless slaves. So your claims of some kind of Congress Gift to Dalits is a lie. In comparison- free land grants were made to Dalits in other states. And you yourself have highlighted the underhand tactics used to prevent land from becoming Commons again; your family got a small corner, but at the expense of how many Dalit children dying of hunger? Think about that.

We were doing a project recently with struggling Dalit families across Tarn Taran. Every house we went to had the same story again and again: "what did your ancestors do? They farmed and foraged in the jungle on the other side of the village from ancient times. But the Sardars (Jat Sikhs) took it away from us. When it came up for auction of the freehold title, we couldn't raise the funds. The Sardars Acquired the freehold of our own houses too and they regularly extract free labour from us and harass and molest our girls as payment)." You would know that this is common across Punjab, if you lived in India and interacted with real people on the ground.

9. More recently, due in part to Supreme court orders, Dalits got a hard-won right to bid for annual leases of 1/3 of Panchayat land (what's left of the Dalit's ancient forest Commons and in spite of tactics used to prevent panchayat land from being created) but it wasn't free: they had to pay full market rate for the privilege for a one year lease from the (Jat-controlled) Panchayat to Dalits.

If you live abroad, what you may not know is that the Jats bring along the local police and thugs and either prevent the auctions from taking place, or place dummy Dalit agents to bid and hand over the land to the Jats and most horrifically - they use sexual violence.

There is indeed a pandemic of rape and murder of Dalit women trying LEGALLY to farm their own ancient common lands- in which Canada's MMIW pales in comparison.

See this short documentary: 

 

As an aside, the very interesting thing is how Dalits farm the Panchayat land, (when they are lucky enough to win the bid for get an annual lease): they farm collectively- by the whole community, for the whole community (every family gets an an equal share of the produce). And it is led by WOMEN. In other words, the Dalits are still growing food communally, equally, and not-for-profit and by women- the way their aboriginal ancestors did, and the way the Guru's Dharamshala's forest gardens were run. They just want to make sure that everyone has food to eat, and be sustainable in the process. Compare with Jats, commercial farmers, who are are hell bent on exploiting every single square inch of land, with maximum pesticide, for a commercial crop. It's run by men and they are reliant upon slave or migrant labour.

Conclusion: I have simplified the history a bit to keep it easy to understand but it boils down to the White/Aryan Coloniser mentality of Colonise and Exploit mother Earth and indigenous peoples: grab-and-exploit as much land as possible, and enslave Indigenous people, hide behind religious garb, and resist reparations, truth and reconciliation.
 

At least you now can no longer plead ignorance! Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. If you have 15-20 acres, and your family hasn't lived in Punjab, nor farmed it for 3 generations, you aren't reliant on the land to put food in your mouth- you don't need the land! Let indigenous Dalit womem take care of it as stewards; it is internationally recognized that  indigenous people do a great Job at protecting mother Earth as custodians.

So might I humbly ask you to donate at least 75% of your land to us for reforestation and to grow organic food for langar purposes? The true Sikh would jump at the opportunity!

If NRI Jats donated their landholdings to grow forests and organic langar gardens- they could save Punjab. Western born Jats are educated. They are taking part in community gardening and nature stuff. So why continue to Exploit and squeeze every single Penny out of Punjab and it's indigenous peoples?

Punjab can only be fixed if and when educated and Gurmukh Jats, as the Power holding class, were to engage in truth and reconciliation.

So I am hopeful that, as an educated and caring person, and as someone who has Faith in the Guru, that you will be willing to offer land.

If you want to talk about donating your Land, please PM me.

 

 

 

 

[GurjantGnostic]

  On 2/27/2023 at 5:17 AM, weareallone said:

So might I humbly ask you to donate at least 75% of your land to us for reforestation and to grow organic food for langar purposes? The true Sikh would jump at the opportunity!

Ooof. Dirty tactics. 

[proactive]

If you want to create these forests and langar gardens, I think you will not get such a great response if you want to have them donated, you would be better of signing a maamla agreement for 5-10 years with the owners where the maamla is zero. I doubt anyone will donate land to you, because these are ancestral lands and only someone who has lost all connection with Punjab would donate their land in such a manner. Personally, I have a connection with Punjab and I want by children to also have the same connection, hence the creation of a not for profit scheme to grow cash crops possibly through drip irrigation. 

[ipledgeblue]

  On 2/28/2023 at 10:20 PM, GurjantGnostic said:

Ooof. Dirty tactics. 

 

  On 3/1/2023 at 10:24 PM, proactive said:

If you want to create these forests and langar gardens, I think you will not get such a great response if you want to have them donated, you would be better of signing a maamla agreement for 5-10 years with the owners where the maamla is zero. I doubt anyone will donate land to you, because these are ancestral lands and only someone who has lost all connection with Punjab would donate their land in such a manner. Personally, I have a connection with Punjab and I want by children to also have the same connection, hence the creation of a not for profit scheme to grow cash crops possibly through drip irrigation. 

I would be interested.

In my ancestral pind, and other pinds I am connected to by family, I want to start a system where langar is available regularly for poor people such as dalits. I would say in a similar manner to how langar works in many London gurdwaras, where langar is most of the day. This would bring these folk also closer to the gurdwara, or rather back to the gurdwara.

I would be willing to donate some of my inherited land for them to do this as well! But I also want to use my land for other benefits of people as well.

[LifeIsBeautiful]

Funniest part of this thread is we always talk about jats being on top. I don't think this is the case anymore.

If you are OBC/Scheduled caste, you can get govt job reservations.

 

There is no money in farming, mazhabis, Churas get reservations for free Atta, and don't work in the farms like their forefathers did.

I think Punjab has come a long way.